Paisley Beebe – Poor Tips ($L)

I am closing this post.  Many of you said some great things, but I am no longer willing to discuss my, or anyone else’s, financial standpoints.  In reality, I have it good.  I have a roof over my head and people all over the world that listen and enjoy my music.

It’s a shame that certain  musical circumstances can’t happen because of money.  I wish every one of us could be millionaires, and we could travel the world constantly, broadcasting and collaborating in SL and RL.  Unfortunately most people are limited to what they know and have in front of them, and they must make due.  I’ve learned how to play keyboards and use recording programs so I could start playing my own music, and I knew I couldn’t afford to hire someone else.  There are always alternative methods, and I hope Paisley finds something that works for her.

I also hope that musicians in SL are able to see more money from it someday, somehow.  Until then, no more economical discussions for me.  I’d rather talk about music.

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17 Comments

  1. Thanks for posting this Moe Im hoping it will open debate and bring out ,what up untill now is being talked about behind peoples hands. I would say though that Aussies and Europeans are not used to tipping in RL or SL and are sometimes just unaware of the cluture of tipping the club and the artists in SL. Which is why a lot of artists and clubs wont put on entertainment for that time zone around 3-8am.

    We aussies are used to just paying upfront. And I have allready had feedback from my note that many of the audience just don’t realise that they should give something, and what the arrangements are between artist and venue. Or what overheads we may have.

    I do beleive that some people want to keep SL as a sort of artistic Utopia, great idea! can I have free rent, free clothes and free streaming..If SL was truely just a game why do we have to pay for most things…..lets just give away every thing.

    Many people are actually making a living on SL thats the beauty of it. You can be disabled old disenfranchised, but accepted for your talent here on SL and maybe support yourself as well. Why should the developers be the only ones making a living if not more than that on SL

    Like Moe I get very little work in RL for various reasons and I don’t beleive its because Im shite….its due to where I live in the world and personal responsibilites I have that prevent me from moving to where the work is. If I can just come out even and pay for a new peice of equipment and sell some C’ds I’d be happy . If SL gets me work ikn RL Ii would be the happiest little jazzer on earth!! but I can’t count on it 🙂
    Ive had more than my 2 Lindens worth of comment I’ll shut up now : )Paisley Beebe

  2. i don´t know if it is really fair to pick on the freebie players in this case. i know that being a musician is a sort of hard survive in most cases, but there are people out there, who just cannot afford money into something that for the most people still is just a game. i am unemployed atm, and i only get a little money to survive my rl. if you compare a 10 L donation by a freebie, who camped for this this money like 50 mins, to a donation of 1000 L by a payment info user, the donation of the freebie is still much more. in my opionion it is way more the responsibility of those who can afford it, to take care about the music, the artists and its quality, by considering sponsorship in one or another way. it may be a good idea, if you could make a website like “help-sl-artists.com” where you can choose one of the filed artists and sign an arrangement with him, that provides him a given monthly amount over a period of a year or something, so the artists would have something to calculate with, instead of having to hope that the donation go well on a gig. furthermore you should see if there are no lables of the (all-)mighty music industry, who got an interest to support music on sl, the big business should have the (money-)power for support anyway and it would be a good opportunity to polish up their images again a bit, after all the shit they done to the development of music in total, they did over the lasts years.

    friendly regards, jaco

  3. I am very glad that this subject is being written about and talked about. As professional musician in RL and as a performer in SL, this is a big topic for me. I have enjoyed very good audiences, CD sales, and tips. I have also performed ticketed concerts charging L$1,000 for special concerts and have made almost what I would make at a RL gig. I think that this is progress. I don’t put down a $L10 tip as I understand that some people cannot afford to tip more. However, I do think that professionals in SL have to be paid for their time. This is our business. Some people think SL is a game. That’s fine. I believe that the emotions and interactions are very real and that performing my music is very real. Just so you know, I love performing in SL. The audience connection is better than many of my RL concerts that I do. Direct feedback from audiences about some of my music has been a gift. That being said, my time and energy has its limits. I play full time in RL and my music is not free. I believe that part of the problem currently is that many people rip mp3s and think nothng of it. For them, music is free. Many people justify it by saying that it is getting back at the big rip-off record companies. But how about when it is an independent artist, such as most of the artists in SL.? I know I have digressed from the subject, but I am going at this stream of consciousness. Please bear with me. Anyway, to get back to music in SL. I believe that more and more professionals will come to SL. And when they do, they will not be performing for free. I won’t perform for free. I now have a fee that I charge for an hour concert or performance. If I don’t get that fee, I don’t play. Very simple. The way that venue owners can pay for this is by creating businesses around their venues. I believe you will see the success of many venues who create an evironment where there is a lot to do and see and purchase in and around their venue. Also, I like the fact the Moe brings up the issue of tipping directly. Also, Paisley talks about possible suggested door fees. I think these are all good things to discuss. I still do free concerts a few times a week, and I will continue to do special ticketed concerts from time to time. For some people, L$1,000 is nothing. The other day a guy tipped me $L7,500. I accept all tips graciously. My only complaint regarding tipping is that the European audience generally does not tip well. I think it ia a cultural thing. But, as a resullt of that, I had to cancel my concerts in Euro time because it wan’t worth my while, even with my guarantee. I believe there will always be free music in SL. My belief is that the high quality music, and the professional music will ultimately have to be paid for. And with luck, we will be paid in a way that reflects the decades of practicing and develping of our art. I look forward to more discussion among musicans and listeners so that a greater understanding of what it means to be a profiessional artist in this day and age can be better undrstood by all. It is not an easy path to take. We need the support of our listeners and fans.

  4. thanks to my fellow sydneysider paisley for the heads-up here. lots of discussion is being bantered about, and that can only be good.

    I’m not sure that the issue is amateur vs pro musicians. most amateurs seem happy just to play, and don’t seem to be too concerned with tips or fees (though I wish a few would spend their L$ on a real-life guitar tuner..).

    but moe and paisley both make the point that they’re hoping for income from sl. I’m not sure that’s going to ve viable for a while yet, the metamarket is still finding its feet. we’re at the point with sl where bell and edison were with a dial tone.

    I’m fortunate in that I have a substantial and established rl career. I see sl as just one more opportunity to connect with a few new fans, same as myspace, etc. I seem to get pretty solid tips and fees, which are neither here nor there to me. L$10k is about $40 USD, and I regulary get $300-500 for the similar RL shows, so the L$ isn’t the point for me.

    I play select venues that stream into rl as well, mainly aimed at the european market where I have a few new and back catalog releases kicking around. I’ll be heading to the uk in a few months to do some shows, and I hope to see the small number of fans I’ve made while performing in sl. for me, sl is just part of a bigger plan.

    I wish the market was more developed for you folks, and sadly, paisley’s right about the aussie jazz market being a niche one. she’s too good to be sitting at home, as are many artists I’ve had the pleasure of enjoying on sl.

    anyway, just wanted to put forth another opinion. I hope more musos join this conversation and contribute. best to all.

    billy thunders

  5. I wonder how gouche it would be to have the tipjar convert the L$ to US$… ie:

    “Flaming Moe’s Tipjar: Thanks for the donation of 10 $L (0.8 cents US)! Your contribution will help Moe and other artists like him continue to provide quality music in SL and at SLCC this August!”

    Or maybe just the counter on top:

    “Tips so far: 200 $L ($1.23 US)”

    I really think that many of the newer players have yet to make the conversions make sense in their head (I know it took me a long time). I’m not sure if it would appear tacky, or would be viewed as a helpful thing and increase overall tips.

  6. I was more thinking of an IM to the donator, rather than open chat… It’d be a bit passive-aggressive, but if it was coupled with a genuine thanks and justification (slcc, etc). I’d agree that spamming chat with donation amounts would be well past tacky. This may be too, I just don’t know what the protocol would be.

    Someone should make a $L -> $US currency conversion calculator, then you could pass it out to every donation under L$10. That would be terribly tacky, but hilarious, nonetheless.

  7. Hi guys I think some of you are still missing my point…..So far most of us can only provide a one man band senario unless you are lucky to have a band that will play for nothing…..I don’t see SL as a money making venture as Billy says AT ALL….I want to be able to simply afford to play on SL with a professional musician..just one, and if I can maybe 2 others to bring a band into second life. I don’t know how many times I have to say it but unless you play an insturment and use backing tapes or sing…most people can not rely on an accompanist or side person…unless they are related or all happy to play for free. So you get the situation of players who can’t sing very well singing to accompany themselves cause they basicially can’t afford a decent singer, or singers who use backing tapes cause they cant afford an accompanist. Im not even breaking even…..Then you get musicians who try to cover costs by playing 2 gigs a day 5 days a week…which can get pretty boring for both the player and the audience. In RL musicians particularly Jazz ones keep themselves employable and interesting by mixing up their bands changing styles themes ect…hard to do with one person….Do we want Sl just to be viable for the one many band only or husband and wife team? The only way I can fund a band bigger than a Duo is to dig into my own pocket unless I charge a cover fee or the club pays for all 3 of us….I only charge a fee for one of us…but the club is getting 2 players actually live not me and a backing tape…Geddit? If I tried to charge a fee for myself and an accompanist….I’d be out of a job….so guess who pays the accompanist ME! out of the tips and fee I get which is a lot less than lucky Billy seems to get….and theres only one of him…So I think its really more about you guys the one man bands…you could be really happy to keep on that way for ever I guess…not upset the apple cart of course you are doing ok…you don’t have to pay anyone…..but forget about having anything more than a soloist….Wouldn’t you like to be able to bring in a band more often and at least make it worth their while driving over to your place…Im basically paying petrol money and lunch money to my guys it takes 3 hours out of their day to play an hour for me and some drive a 45 min drive to get here….Please stop thinking about this as a few musicians trying to substitue SL for RL where we cant get a gig on a sidewalk…and look a bit further ahead…There is also a huge market on SL in the Europeans and eventually the Aussies…there is not music for them very little occasionally Fabrice and Peet…but Im on SL at night my time and there is nothing…why? just as Louis said there is no point….The Euros and Aussies do not Tip in RL or Sl its just not in our culture…we pay for what we get…so introducing a fee a small one will be no great stretch for them at all. And all the personal feedback I have so far got says they have no problem paying up front and some even said they were totally unaware of tipping the clubs and since my note have started doing it….
    I don’t any of us here in SL that have been here for 6 months or more think Sl is a cash cow…we just would like a better system that is fair for all, and affords us a better option than a backing tape or one man band or streaming from a gig….which is really hard..If you guys who have the one man band set up are happy with how it is for you fine…but don’t point the finger at us that cannot be the one man band at trying to raise the bar above a bad backing tape….you guys have the market sewn up….right now I understand you may not want to give that up…but I think that if we can expand our options a bit we will be able to play the music we want and just cover our costs even if its just once a month or once a week…
    Now Ive had my 4L input…sorry….love you guys…:) Paisley

  8. Just chiming in ….with no new input. I agree, with everything said….

    … except regarding the $10L tips…. I sorta feel that any tip is fine. I think some of the people that tip $10L are just trying to support, but have no money. They’re just sorta throwing a ‘nod’ … like, “hey, I dig your stuff, thanks for the show, but I really have nothing”

    Maybe the pro performers all need to up their rates together?

  9. Firstly, a one-paragraph preamble, to position me in your thoughts.

    I am an avid SL live music listener. And here is music for your ears, as SL musicians: I have ceased to fund the lifestyles of blood-sucking RIAA lawyers and their labels, by making a complete break away from label music. It was hard at first but no longer. Now when I gaze at the rows upon rows of my old CD collection, it is typically tinged with contempt for the corrupt system that it represents.

    So now back to SL. Live music in SL is *fantastic*, despite all the technical problems that everyone is currently suffering. While SL itself is not necessarily the future (unless they sort out their scalability for events, they will die), playing your music to virtual worlds is most definitely where things are heading.

    Share my vision: one performer (or virtual band like VLB), one thousand (million?) virtual worlds, all sync’d up for the event and presenting your live performance in their individual world styles. If you are a performer, I hope that you don’t get stage fright, because this will be COLLOSAL.

    So, I’m very positive and optimistic about the future of live music played in virtual spaces. Yet, I was extremely dismayed to read many of the key posts on this thread.

    For all the sadness that I felt when I received Paisley’s in-game IM, where else had I heard before “If you don’t pay me more, I won’t be able to play for you”? Oh yes, from the RIAA labels: “Cheap music downloads destroy our business plan.”

    Well I have news for business people everywhere, and not just musicians: the world does not owe you a living. If you provide something for which people WANT to pay, and if you employ a business model that is compatible with the reality of modern technology, then you will thrive. If you don’t, you won’t. Learn from the mistakes of the RIAA.

    The comments about any given amount of L$ being too low was particularly lacking in insight: all it means is that your music is not being appreciated highly enough. To be negative about your audiences because of it is extremely myopic. They are your lifeblood.

    When I go to Cylindrian’s live events in SL, her fantastic musicianship and powerful rhythms and supreme delivery full of punch and emotion (and her delightful live laughter) make me WANT to pay her, for the enjoyment that she brings me. That’s the right way to go about this, by playing great music for which there is an audience and enthralling them, and not by proclaiming your poverty or the inadequacy of your business model.

    In summary: stop thinking along RIAA lines. That future is dead.

    Change your approach and grasp the future, because it will be huge, and you really really don’t want to miss it.

    Morgaine Dinova @ SL.

  10. Moe,

    That was a lovely response, so encouraging. Yes, there is a stunning future coming up for performing musicians, a future in which at long last they can play directly to millions live right across the world, free from the need for anyone to travel, and free of the tyranny of servitude to shareholders, and yet still truly connecting and interacting with audiences.

    But it means nothing for futurists like to me to say this (I can barely find middle C), if musicians don’t hold that same vision. It’s totally great to know that you do. 🙂

    SL represents nothing but a hint of that future, and a poor one at that, since their sim scalability has barely risen from 40 to 50 people over 2 years, Sadly LL’s inability to scale up is the main restriction on musicians’ income at this time — Cylindrian, Komuso and at least a dozen others hit that limit on every single performance.

    Being a software/systems designer, I was discussing scalability for events with Philip Linden over two years ago (and suggesting solutions), and he agreed that there is major problem. And yet, nothing has been done about it in over two years.

    Unfortunately, I think that nothing will happen, partly because of lack of competition, and partly because technical designers are not a visible pressure group. In contrast, musicians probably have the highest personal profiles of anyone on the planet, so perhaps they should be screaming loudly at Philip! He’s a nice guy, but he does seem to need pushing towards the obvious occasionally. 🙂

    Just look at the numbers, even within the puny world of SL. Imagine for a moment that the grid were redesigned for dynamic scalability (that mean that CPU power follows demand, rather than being tied to a given land area), such that event venues could hold a very unambitious 1000 live music fans. Let’s see where that takes us.

    Well our Gracie says that she goes home with at least L$1k from every event, but it’s almost certainly L$5k from most of them, and that’s in the absence of benevolent SL businessmen who do pop in occasionally. Now extrapolate L$5k/50 to audiences of a measly 1000: we’re now talking about L$100k per event, or US$350 — in other words, the same amount that Billy Thunders says gives him a comfortable living from RL performances.

    And that’s with audiences of merely a 1000 people, in other words 0.02% of the current population of SL. See the opportunity? It doesn’t require much imagination to extrapolate where that totally unrepresentative 0.02% could head … in other words, stratospheric. Everyone loves music. 🙂

    There are technical difficulties to overcome of course, but there’s nothing like a good problem to get techs going, and there are a number of solutions to this particular difficulty. But it needs the will to redesign SL’s infrastructure first, and it needs very vocal demands from interested parties to make it happen.

    But when it does, the world will belong to musicians. 🙂

    Morgaine Dinova @ SL.

  11. Hi Morgaine, I have only just read your comment, I sort of stayed away from looking as I was really getting over the whole thing. Im depressed that you think that I sound like a major record company because I want to bring a band into second life and actually afford to do that. I can’t pay them…and last week I also had great crowds to my gigs, but I payed out to my band way more than I made. I had to dip into my poor old credit card to pay em. If you think this is crying poor well….you just arn’t getting it..Im trying to lift the level here beyond one artist doing well in SL, I want to be able to sing in here with a live accompanist. But I cannot get anyone of any calibre to do it for free….regularly once maybe,.so if specualating how I might be able to do that compares me to the evil empire of record companies I think you are over exagerating. And no Im not just going to sit back and winge about it either…I do realise after some 16 years of professional experience that the audience does not owe me a living and that I must be good enough to earn it…if you are inferring that therefore I must be not good enough as my tips are not good thats not acurate either….its not about that. Its about playing at my best at all times, being able to have a live musician or musicians with me. So instead of sticking the knife in me and telling me basically to stop crying poor and get on with it, and get better so I get paid more….why don’t you actually come and see one of my gigs…if you haven’t and see what Im talking about. Not everyone will like what I do maybe you wont but anyone who does know a little bit about me knows I have good intentions with SL , Im not trying to rip off anyone….just afford my band….And as far as other feedback I have got and there has not been much many people just don’t understand how musicians get paid in SL they think the venues pay us way more than we do, they do not realise that we rely on the audience to help keep up going. I was hoping that my IM alerted people to that and it has in a small way. We all have visions here in SL and they are all important I appreciate yours but mine is much easier to acheive and simpler…if everyone pays a small fee then we don’t have to rely on the big sponsor that graces us with a big tip every week or so but its fairly split.I will allways try to play :free: gigs…and there is really very little in the way of “Free” music here in SL someone allways pays…the venue or the tippers…I guess if I were a product of a big record lable I would have no scrupples and be as greedy as hell, but hey I can tell you if I was those things I wouldn’t have stuck with doing this for as long as I have perhaps Im just a stupid self obsessed fool, with no talent. its not for you to judge mate if you havenet been in my shoes. Im sorry this is sooo cross but Im sooo sick of some people thinking Im trying to screw people out of money…thats such a joke! I really don’t know sometimes why I bother even trying to defend my position its seems what ever I say people read into it whatever their bias is. So I guess I’ll just do what I have too. And let the Second Lifers decide if my idea of bringing professional bands in here to accompany me is worth paying for fairly or not. If I get no audience then well….back to the drawing board but Im not giving in without a fight.
    Paisley cranky Beebe

  12. I’m pretty new at performing in here but I have seen a lot of success as far as tips go. I too take it personally sometimes (when I shouldn’t) that someone tips me the equivalent of 4 cents in US$; however I also hadn’t thought about the fact that many people in here are camping for their income and it adds a whole new perspective to the value of a Linden dollar. Still if I were in real life and some cat dropped four pennies in my jar I would take it as an insult; so, I guess it’s important to keep things in perspective. Recently I had my tip jar script changed to set the quick pay buttons at much higher amounts and I have definitely seen tremendous success with that. I think that the conversion rate is confusing and that the perception of monetary value for linden dollars is lost upon most of the people in here. Especially Noobs.
    Regardless, I think increasing awareness is important to us as a group of performing musicians in here. I personally couldn’t afford to stream if I wasn’t streaming live events with separate income from a RL source. I’ve done a few Duos in here out of my own pocket and I definitely feel what Paisley is saying from the lack of tips on some of those occasions. It’s going to be tough to make a difference while the exchange rate is confusing and it’s tough to say something without sounding like a beggar. I mention it at shows; however, usually by reminding them to tip the venue in hopes that they will get the hint and tip me as well. I don’t plan to make a lot of money in here from performances and thus having low expectations, I’m happy when I do a banner night. I do appreciate tips as long as I keep it in perspective that some people have no idea what the conversions are. Somehow we have to find away to educate without sounding like we’re complaining. That’s a razor’s edge to walk especially when we are talking over a stream where nuance of conversation and text can so easily be misconstrued. This conversation is ultimately beneficial and I think it’s commendable that Paisley had the stones to bring it up; it’s tough to talk about this issue without sounding like you are crying poor; but, it is an issue that is important to address.

    The question also arises as to what benefit, financially, a live musician is providing to a venue per se. It’s a key point to realize that if a venue is not making any money from a performer (whether by collateral traffic to a store or direct tipping) then what onus would a venue have to pay a significant fee to a performer? The answer of course is: none.

    So we have to talk about value. What is the value of a performance? To each performer it is certainly different and also to each spectator. I try to increase the value of my performance by talking to the audience and showing them recognition. For every performer it is going to be as different as it is for each spectator. I hate to get all business-like within an artistic field but the market will only bear what the market brings. I’m sure we all know this at some level though so maybe we should just keep talking about it until actual solutions can be imagined.

    Either way to talk about it is good (probably better to only talk about it to ourselves as musicians else our fans think us ungrateful) and there will always be amateurs who will water down the market for Pros. Pro musicians have been complaining about people using tracks in RL for years. In fact we still do. That’s how it is in RL and that’s how it will always be everywhere. Technology’s ever increasing efficiency makes it easier and easier for amateurs to instantly emulate what many of us take years to learn. Audiences in SL rarely care who or what is providing the music, it’s unfortunate but a fact of SL. Amateurs are fighting for space just like pros are. They are seeking recognition (and so are we) while we’re also seeking compensation. The key may be to try to make money collaterally by promoting your albums for sale online or selling swag, but alas, the business of art is still business; always was and it always will be. Usually the more talented performers eventually rise to the top unfortunately, audiences here are not very discerning; on the other hand, that could be good for the spirit of art for art’s sake. Who knows? At this point I think it may be a conundrum; however, I like that we’re talking about it 🙂

    I like hearing the suggestions for solutions like:
    *Conversions being posted in US$ to a private IM
    *Private main chat message which, I think my jar does.
    *Changing Quick pay buttons to higher amounts
    *Mentioning it discretely at shows
    *Patiently waiting until venues support more people and making comments to the Lindens about improving that

    Oh yeah and you guys should work on your conversions, most of the conversions in this post are WAY off. As I understand it, 1000L is US$4.08 (as of this moment)
    And so 10 linden would be about 4 cents
    100K linden = 408 US$

    MidKnight Auer
    Wishing I had more RL gigs to stream 🙂

  13. Paisley,

    I was very saddened by your in-game IM, as I mentioned in my first post. You have very real financial issues in trying to deliver your chosen type of performance, and you certainly have my sympathy for that on a personal front. I have been in financial predicaments too in the past, and it’s not pleasant.

    The problem here though stems entirely from your choice of business model: to pay RL fees to RL musicians playing in RL while delivering your music to SL and earning SL fees. That business model is unsustainable in the current SL because of the sim limits, which themselves are an artifact of LL’s rather myopic design. (And they know it, or at least Philip does, and presumably he talks to his staff).

    The way you proposed to get out of your current problem is to increase prices to match your business model — the exact same approach of the RIAA and their labels. I know that “RIAA” is a hateful trigger word and that you won’t be overjoyed at my using it, but the correspondance between approaches is valid, and if mentioning “RIAA” makes that approach unattractive then all the better. (Nothing else should be read into it — I’m on your side re the problem, just not on the solution.)

    You have real costs to meet, whereas they have profit levels to sustain, but it’s the same approach: make the customer pay to overcome one’s own poor choice of business plan. Of course, they are also blood-dripping soulless vampiric leeches who hate their customers, and you’re not. 🙂 But I am referring to their business model alone here.

    I hope that you don’t consider this as somehow criticizing you personally, because it’s NOT INTENDED THAT WAY. I am suggesting that you change your business model, that’s all. It *HAS* to match reality, there is no escaping from it even in SL, because you have introduced an RL problem. If you don’t, you’ll go under. This must mean replacing the fixed-fee musicians by others willing to share in the meagre SL pickings under current 50-avatar sim limits.

    But those limits are not fixed in stone. If you want to make money using your existing business model, you’d better be first in line knocking on Philip’s door, and *demanding* that he redesign his infrastructure to scale for events. It’s getting worse and worse by the minute — every time that SL acquires a new subscriber, the percentage of SL population that can attend a performance drops yet further. This is a downward spiral to nowhere.

    And the solution I proposed is nothing if not constructive and positive: given audences of 0.02% of the population (1000 avs), isn’t US$350 per performance enough to pay your RL musicians? And 0.02% or 1000 avs is certainly not the limit. In fact there is no real limit, apart from 100%. Of course, the onus is then on you to fill those seats, but that’s a different issue.

    And yes, I’m a realist too, and I know that those numbers don’t apply today. Today, you have to replace your business model with one that has drastically lower RL costs. But please beat on Philip’s door so that the future for musicians can be MUCH better.

    Morg.

  14. Morgain Im afraid you are misinformed the sim limits are not 50 I have played two gigs both with 100 People limit and the sim limit was reached, also 85 people last week. I don’t pay my band members RL fees at all, I would be paying them about twice what I do pay them if I did. And…..Im not charging the audience more if a great percentage of the audience is not paying….at all. You are right about the buisness model, but….I wonder if you would be happy to give your services away in software design Morgain…you Im sure get paid for your services. Why are musicians not seen as service providors? we are non essential I guess, not in SL anyway. The whole system as it is now has nothing to do with sim limits….preventing progress but more to do with people on SL not taking music seriously and not having to pay anything to see good music. If I get 100 people listening to me here in SL that is about 4 times as much as any jazz club in Sydney attracts any night of the week. IAgood buisness model is that you provide a worthwhile service as best as you are capable of and if people want that service than they have to exchange something in return…Tell me pleeeese where in SL you have seen anyother service providor provide a service for SLfers for free I will show you a charity or a support group maybe….but I don’t think musicians qualify as that. You want something for nothing…200L is less than a dollar I beleive…in U.S I pay more than that for Hair on SL. Good luck with your ideas Morg you did personally attack me btw I can quote you but its not necessary. Just don’t go see music you have to pay for…or pay for all the people at a gig and maybe we are talking about fairness. Oh btw Second life is not a Eutopia if it were I would not be paying tier or streaming fees but alas I do have too as well….I have made a promiss to some of my freinds not to continue writing on this as it is too upsetting to see my craft and my fellow musicians craft so devalued by people who think music and performances should be free….when it costs us so much in money blood sweat and tears. It is not as simple as just increasing the sims or multi streaming..Its about changing the existing culture that music in SL is free when it clearly is not not for the musicians and not for the venues who try to hold gigs. Best wishes Paisley

  15. my understanding is that the sim capacity issue is being looked at as a result of the increase in brands and corporations seeking inworld presences.

    on a side note, is everyone hip to bobby’s inworld mp3 vendor? great idea, and I hope it catches on.

    re the L$10 tips, many noobs haven’t cottoned onto the values yet and probably don’t have much themselves if they signed up for a freebie account (remember the ol’ monthly stipend days?).

    there’s no easy answer, but just keep plugging along, folks. as long as the user numbers keep growing, the quality of the artists gets better, the inworld technology improves – and most important – we all still love performing “live”, then things will work out. call me an optimist. or call me ishmael.

    and paisley, I’d come play free for you anytime, except I don’t know those complicated jazz chords freddy uses…. 🙂

  16. WOW…wish I could read Every comment…everyone brings up such great points. To me, I look at it as a hobby musician (someone who ‘can play and can sing’..but certainly doesn’t grab my ears) and the Professional musician, or more well established one, is someone who Captivates the audience again and again and again..mostly they do Originals..they know it’s not WHAT they are playing and performing it is HOW they are). The difference? There are ‘amusing musicians’ who are well Entertaining……not necessarily that good, don’t really have what it takes to make a career…but people find them enetertaining…ya know the type..they can kinda sing in tune, they can kinda play the guitar…but dear god if t hey can make themselves stand out with pure talent….lessons wouldn’t hurt.
    Then there are the musicians..who I have heard that render me silent, because I am so IN THEIR MOMENT..they Project such a raw talent…such a beautious sound…something so Bare and raw..that I can hardly speak…and I’ve been known on numerous occassions to tip 500-1500 Lindens for talent that I FEEL.
    If the Musician does NOT feel it, niether does the audience.
    As far as tipping
    it’s an brilliant IDEA to think you can make a living off sl…..and I agree with Paisley in the fact that.>People Want Us to Play For free..??? SO GO GIVE IT ALL AWAY…give your land away, give clohes away….Hell it’s just a game right????
    NOT
    for some, i’ts a genuine escape..nothing wrong with that
    and for others, myself included..Moe. Paisley. Cylindrian….this IS our passion it IS what we do, it IS what our essence BREATHES in and out day and night…and RL gigs..for some….are not as common when we live in areas where it’s not as ‘realistic’ to hop in our car and be at our gig…it’s a long logn drive…or perhaps the Industry in some areas doesn’t support our ‘genre’ or style.
    Bare with me…my mind has many angles on this.
    Bottome Line….if you are walking away from a gig with Only 500Lindens….look at the Venue..Some Venues wn’t let the noobs in..with No Payment on file..just like in RL..some Venues have a ‘code’…..a miniumum drink price….or a FEE they pay the musician..and aren’t letting the people in who can’t afford it anyway.
    There is great talent in SL who will play for free, or cheap..
    There is ‘so called talent’ who thinks they can charge everyone in site steep amounts…i mean talent IS OPINION, it’s not a fact….if 90% of listeners LOVE my music….10% hate it…or vice versa.
    We’ve all seen the crap musician get up, Coughing in the mic, smoking during songs, and strumming the guitar like a 6 yr old on their walmart guitar….and the audeince screaming OMG SHE/HE IS SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD, as they barely can strum thier way thru the standards…..Screaming into their mic, or singing a song fulll of stale cliche’s…oh….and yes…the venue owner
    ‘I CAN”T B ELIEVE SHE/HE IS SOOO GOOD’
    ok…..two cats screamin in the night likedying babies….to some..might sound good.
    Then a Pro. gets up there, and the SAME venue owner says OMG YOU ARE SO GOOD I LOVE YOUR MUSIC….phhhhtttttt!!!!!
    It’s OPINION.
    We get paid based on opiinions of who wants to have us…and i gotta say, some of the venue’ owners….do NOT know talent when it’s KISSIN them on their stupid faces!
    The people that take Musicians SERIOUSLY are willing to shell out the Lindens…or USD or whatever.
    I require people to use Paypal for my fee, or the equivelent of it in Lindens…..Some say OOO SURE of course…(most have no issue with this because they Also take the Music seriously)
    and some say
    I NEVER PAY MORE THAN 1500 LINDENS (we all know that’s barely enough to buy a candy bar)…
    As Billy said..IN RL….people will pay 200-300 or MORE for a good show.
    IN SL…i’ve been paid at least that much for Large Scale gigs, opening sims…big events etc…….
    and on Rare Occasion, i WILL play for 1500 Lindens..because…EXPOSURE is more imp. to me than Money. MONEY is imp. ALSO…….but the more people that hear me, the more Venues that contact me. After most shows, someones in IM’s ready to book me for their venue….or the venue i play wants me back as a reg..THANK GOD it happens more and more…..
    IN RL it takes about 10 years to become an OVERNIGHT SUCCESS
    in SL…….some of us might be the BIG FISH in the LIL POND
    but it takes awhile to get the rest of the world to notice.
    ….
    now that i’ve spranted on words in 7 directions……it just makes me realize…there aer MANY points to what all of everyone is saying
    I LOVE
    THE IDEA of a tilp jar that says Lindens-USD
    and I have been k nown to Announce or drop notecards at some shows….giving the LInden-USD rates…..
    8000LINDENS is barely close to what should be paid for the Musician who obviously reaches peoples souls, for the Musicians who touch us, give us reason to see and LOVE LIVE MUSIC IN SL
    there is good talent……and there is….well…people who just know how to strum and sing pretty…with NO emotion…
    as Billie Holiday said

    there are two types of Musicians in this world
    those that ‘want to play’
    and those that ‘have to play.;
    …time to start noticing the difference.

  17. As the owner of a couple of musical venues in Second Life – I appreciate this issue from both perspectives. I always make a point of paying our performers – more than they ask for – and do so happily. The richness the artists bring to my sims increase their value to my renters and businesses. I know many tenants love living in Basiat Rersorts because we care about music and art and create an environment to foster its growth. Just as in my real life – I invest in art. I do not expect a pay back though – the art and music is my payback. I originally thought I could offer the culture and sell seats – but quickly realised that music events in themselves are not a profitbale marketplace in SL and may never be without ‘super stars’ and the kind of push that record companies have – and I am NO FAN of RIAA – nor do I have the resources of a major label. For now I am happy to be able to offer places for artists to perform – and for me and nmy extended SL family to enjoy.


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